Interview with Zakiyyah Cordell: Fruit of the Spirit & Healthy Boundaries - Being Kind vs. Being Nice

Welcome to Evolving with Elle, where a capable woman recognizes what she's managing, understands

the responsibilities that she's carrying, and chooses self-honoring over self-abandonment,

and decides to continue, change, or release.

I am Elle. I bring the mirror, the map, and the message. You choose how you show up in a way that honors your capacity.

So let's lean in, learn, and evolve together.

We're here with Zakiyyah Cordell. She is an author, an awesome woman that I know personally,

and we have been this season talking about what we want to celebrate.

We've talked about it from the standpoint of conflict, mind-body, and now we're going to talk about it

from the fruit of the spirit. So what I want to just put a disclaimer out here,

I love God, I have a relationship with God, and so does Zakiyyah. We are not trying to change

your belief system. Because our belief system makes us who we are, we get to talk about our

spiritual selves, right? And we invite you into this conversation, and you get to see it from

your spiritual lens, or not at all. So we're not trying to convert anyone. We are talking from a place

from which our heart comes from, okay? So I just wanted to say that. So with Zakiyyah being an author

and a friend, I want to bring her up right now and let her share about herself.

Hi, Zakiyyah. Hi, Elle. How are you? I am fine. How are you? Doing good, doing good. Thank you so much.

I'm so glad that you invited me on. It's nice to get a chance to talk to you like this. Yes.

It is fun to get to talk to you like this as well. Yeah. Yeah. And with that being said,

can you share with us, you can introduce yourself and share with us something that you are proud of,

something you hadn't really thought to kind of celebrate, and then we'll go in from there.

Okay. Well, thanks. So the thing that I wanted to talk about is I like the idea

of celebrating. So there's a couple of big things that I get a chance to share. So in 2024,

I woke up from a coma of two days after having a stroke. I woke up in a hospital that I didn't

realize I was there. And I looked at my husband of 24 years at the time, and I said,

I need to make a difference with my life. Why was that the first thing I said?

We'll eventually get there. And so Fruit of the Spirit was born. I needed to write this book.

And I wrote it out of gratitude, like you had mentioned in the beginning,

as kind of a love note to God, and also to teach people about how to build deep connections with

each other, with neighbors, with people they don't know, people at work, by practicing the

Fruit of the Spirit. And so one of the reasons I was kind of dismayed that there was not really

books that were out there that didn't talk just about kind of orange slices. I wanted to go on

the other side to really respect children and their families, their intelligence, and say,

hey, look, they're okay. Even though we can keep it simple, we need to definitely tell them that

the Fruit of the Spirit is literally serious, and it's from God. And so you can express that

from God. So fast forward to today, 50 years old, and I did publish the book. So when it comes to

accomplishments, I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, I did. I really got to do that. And I mean,

it took a long time. I had wanted to write a book for a long time. And this is the one that came.

Yay. That is so awesome, Zakiyyah. And with the Fruit of the Spirit,

I have recognized that, you know, in the Bible, it's in Galatians chapter 5. Not only does it

talk about the Fruit of the Spirit, but it also talks about the other stuff as well. And when

I read it again, it says, you can't make a law against the Fruit of the Spirit, because

because why would you? Why would you want to make a law against love,

treating people the way you want to be treated, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness,

self-discipline? Why would you want to make a law against that? There'd be no reason.

There is no reason, right? So even if the following Christ, following God is not your

bent, just focus on the words joy, peace, patience, love, treating people the way you

want to be treated, gentleness, kindness, self-discipline, faithfulness. Like, as human

beings, don't we want to teach our children how to be and live out this fruit? And don't we,

as individuals and people, unique people, unique individuals, also want to live this out?

Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree that that was the impetus behind wanting to do this,

said, I want to make a difference. And like you're saying in even being gentle with an audience to

say, I don't know where you're at. I'm not completely sure. I don't need to know that.

I just need to approach it from a place that says you're valued. You have value and I have value.

And so therefore, it is a presentation. It is a way that I'm choosing to treat you because of

my specific spiritual beliefs. And that one is going to be the one that there is no law against.

There is a law against the opposite of that, hating people, calling people bad names,

treating people wrong, stealing and all of those kinds of things. There is a law because

it's not right, but there isn't. It's true. There is not a law against it. And we definitely want

people to treat people well. And that's really actually what God wants for us as well. So

that exactly what you're talking about is exactly the reason, the type of difference that I wanted

to make. And then the other reason was as a leader, I wanted to learn how to lead from a place that I

was comfortable with and that I could be happy with myself at the end of the day. And my,

a lot of people, but definitely my experience a lot of times with leadership was mean,

yelling, putting people down, belittling people. And I never really felt like, well, I can't say

never, but I've met leaders that were wonderful. But the majority of the leaders that I met,

I was like, I don't, I don't want to do any of that. And I don't feel terrible if I did.

I'm going to go home and just be like, I don't even like me. So that's another accomplishment

for me was really learning how to be a leader that I can be comfortable with, that I can say,

I can honor God, my beliefs, who I am as a person, my personality, and all of that,

and still be very effective at what I'm doing. Yes, indeed. And Zakiyyah, what I'm hearing you say

is you connected with yourself, you connected with your spiritual self, your values.

And from that way of being, that is how you chose to show up in the world. Despite the world,

work, bosses, whomever, the work culture, expecting you to behave the way they behaved.

But you made a conscious choice to choose and expect yourself to show up differently.

And what have you seen from that choice? Yeah, that's a really great question.

So I will have to say one of the things that I've been able to see is the growth of

adults, because I do work with adults, and I have adult children, and in caring for adults, sometimes

being able to be a team, and appreciating that they bring something to the table,

and that when the wall is broken down that says, generally speaking, leaders are mean and nasty,

and no good, very bad, I'm going to ask you about what you bring, and what you would like to bring,

and what you're comfortable with bringing. Listening with a listening ear, taking all the

gentleness and the kindness and the patience to go, let's have a conversation. And then from that,

taking pieces that say, this is clearly important to you. Maybe I don't verbalize that, but the next

time I talk to you, we're going to go, hey, I remember that this thing was really important

to you. Are you sure we want to go this direction? Because remember, I remember you talked about that,

and that was really important. So that was one of the things that I learned as a leader, being able

to take the fruits of the spirit as how I was going to be leading. That was one. And the other

one definitely had a lot to do with, you know, there's people who can be really nice. Sometimes

they don't set boundaries. And so I learned to set boundaries as well. And to say, here's how I can

do it in a way that respects me, respects you, and respects whatever we're trying to do. And so I

learned that in that self-discipline, I learned in that being able to be faithful, to just say,

here's what it is that we need to do. And we can either do it this way, or that way, or another way.

However, the point is, we got to get this done. Right. So I can step away if that's what needs

to happen. You can step away if that needs to happen. Whatever we need to do. But this needs

to get done. And that was a place where I could, I finally learned how to correct people, just

correct them without feeling terrible about myself, without pretending like I'm not trying

to correct you, without belittling them, or, you know, acting weird. Just this is the way it is.

So that was another, that was definitely an accomplishment when it came to how to use the

fruits of the spirit to honor myself, honor other people. Because oftentimes, most people do want to

do well at whatever it is they're doing. And so maybe they just don't know how. And then maybe

they're not capable. Or maybe this isn't a good fit. But you're not going to figure that out if

you avoid the conflict in the first place. Right. Or you have a wall up. You have this,

this rigidity, like, hey, I have got to be guarded. Because people have hurt me before. I remember my

past. I remember previous experiences. And the words that Zakiyyah just used triggered something

in me, right? And that's where we get to be discerning. And yes, with discern, to me,

discernment is so different than being guarded and protective. Because being guarded and protective

of yourself, let's think about that. You're putting walls up around you, not only to keep people

out, but also to keep you in. So you are placing yourself in captivity. You may not know that. And

that may not have been something someone highlighted to you. I had to figure that out myself. Because

I started watching people and seeing how people could interact in a way that honored

themselves and their values, and they were able to lead from that place. Right. And then I was

paying attention to the women that I'd seen growing up, like my mom, aunts, grandmothers,

friends. And then I was paying attention to myself. So I was like, huh, I picked up their

behaviors of being guarded, because I had been hurt before. And my I was trying to protect my

value, all the things, right, my emotions, my just protect myself. Then life disruptions happened.

And I'm like, I'm trying to do all of this by myself, thinking that I've got to be skeptical,

cynical, and protective. Because let's look at all this history of people. And mind you,

I knew about the fruit of the spirit. Right? I knew about it. But it was like, I don't know

how to use it in that kind of a situation. And then the light bulb came on. After interacting

with other people, and deciding, like what Maya Angelou said, if you don't like something,

change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Right. So I did both. Yeah. Yeah. And

in recognizing that, oh, I don't have to be guarded, I've got to be discerning.

And discernment keeps me free. And I can, as you were saying, put the boundaries up.

Because people thought like, hey, Elle didn't have any boundaries, we could do to her whatever

we wanted and say to her what we wanted. And she just kept on going. Not anymore.

So we got to have some. Yeah, just letting you know, this is, I'm not going to be allowing this

to be crossed. You might do whatever it is that you're still going to do. However, though,

you're right, I might need to change something. And that is okay. And it is. That's part of

evolving is looking at, huh, this is what I used to do. Or this is what I used to allow.

And now and seeing about peace about kindness. Because, okay, here's a question for you.

What's the difference between being kind and nice?

Hmm. Yeah, let's see. What would I think about that? Um, you know, I would say possibly nice,

if I really think about it is more along the lines of I just don't want to upset anyone.

Yeah, at all costs. And I have definitely learned that for a long time that I just need to be very,

very nice meaning nobody should ever get upset ever with anything I ever did. But then being

kind can be I might need to say something to you that might not be wonderful. And I can still say

it in a way that honors who you are and honors who I am and honors the situation.

I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. I was listening to Dr. Marshall Rosenberg, and he said,

don't be nice. There's no need to be nice. And that caught me off guard when I heard you say that,

right. And when he said it, it woke up to it opened my eyes to what you just said. Being nice

is about the other person and not about yourself. So you're a person is fulfilling someone else's

need, taking ownership of someone else's emotions, their atmosphere of their day,

at a detriment to self. It doesn't honor the other person on the other side.

Whereas being kind is not only am I kind to you, I will gently say something to you that needs to be

said and allow you the space to deal with however that impacts you. And I'm not holding back

swallowing mistreatment. So I'm also being kind to myself. And as you were saying,

when we opened up, you're all about connection, right? And relationship and creating these bonds.

So with the fruit of the spirit, being kind is a bond between both people,

because if someone has a horrible, no good, very bad day, whatever that song is,

that doesn't mean it's your responsibility or someone else's responsibility to help them turn

that day around. You just crossed a boundary. You dishonored someone and said you are not capable

of managing your own feelings, choosing how to switch and step into your peace and your joy.

You just said, hey, you have no self-discipline. So let me help you.

Yeah, you might not need that. Sometimes we do have to feel the big feelings that we have,

because the situation calls for it. And you're right, it's easier to go, okay, I would rather

everybody smile, but what kindness and joy, fruits of the spirit and all of that, what it brings up

in my mind is that it's not pretending everything is okay. It is acknowledging that no circumstance

at all is the one who dictates everything. That means we can feel what we feel.

Situations or circumstances can be what they are. And on top of all of that, kindness is consistent.

Love is consistent. Peace and patience and all of those things, because of where it comes from.

It's the character of God that he poured into us to go, this is a wellspring that we can have

at all times. So we can be grieving and we can still display the fruits of the spirit.

We can be in a time that's really tough, really hard. We can still do that. Also, because it does

allow for hope. Like you're saying, it allows for discernment, it allows for freedom, it allows for,

there's no law against it. Like you had said, it allows for us to still be able to

to know that hopefully there's a tomorrow that's maybe not as bad, or even if it is,

that we can get through it. We can move through this, that other person can move through that.

Maybe we can help to find some resources if that's where we're at. And if we're not,

that's perhaps okay too. But yeah, it allows for reality to exist,

because what also exists is the spirit behind the fruits of the spirit.

Yes, the spirit, and dare I say, the energy we bring to it as well. Because what I want to really

caution people on, and just really highlight, this is not about spiritual bypassing.

You clearly said, feel what you are going to feel. That doesn't mean suppress, push down, avoid,

go around as if feelings are bad. They are not. Just like we are talking about the spiritual

aspects of our humanity, there's also an emotional aspect of our humanity. And it all works together.

It is a system that we get to integrate and align. And I think that some of the reason,

well, from my experience, where I have experienced misalignment, is when I try to separate my

spiritual self, my emotional self, my working self. And I'm just trying to compartmentalize as

I'm that, like, how many selves do you have? One self. We do. We do have one self. We do.

We have one. And you've got to bring your whole self into every aspect of your life, every role.

Because you know, that's what I talk about. I talk about how we have, say that one more time.

I said you sure do. That's right.

As we have all of these multiple roles, we've got to bring our unique, authentic self

into each role. Dare I, I like saying role identity, whether it's woman, parent,

co-parent, spouse, employee, business owner, author. You've got to bring your whole self

into each of those roles. Because you're carrying all of those roles all at once.

Right. And that's exactly what you're talking about is, well, two things that you had discussed.

One was, I have a theory that possibly, one of the reasons why I had a stroke a few years ago,

one, because it was all kinds of health things that were just going on in general physically.

But I think also, I was, I guess you could say probably misaligned when it came to emotions.

And there was a lot of things that I still was like, no, I shouldn't feel that. I don't think

I'm supposed to, all these things, but I just kind of suppressed. And I know for sure that psychologists

and others are like, you don't want to do that because you can have physical ramifications of

that. And we kind of are thinking that perhaps so. And so that was one of the reasons why I said I

went full energy on, I need to let this out. And I say that because I wanted to write a book for 20

years. And not that I wasn't trying to write it. I just had like, am I really good enough to do this?

Can I actually do this? Am I smart enough to do this? I even went as far as to go, you know,

maybe I'm just too old to do this. And all of these different excuses that I, they weren't loud,

which is why sometimes for myself, I was like, yeah, yeah, that's probably right. Because it

wasn't like, I wasn't meanly saying it to myself. I was like, you know, it's okay,

don't worry about it. And then the stroke happened. And it just lit a fire that said, girl,

what you gonna do? You're gonna take this little book right here, take it out of yourself.

Just take it out. And that's what we did. You need to live on your own because you are too big to live

in here, where you're not supposed to be living. Nope. So it wasn't this title. It was I was going

to do alphabets, numbers and colors for kids, because I like to work with kids. But then I said,

I don't know if that's gonna be as successful, I guess you could say as something else. So after a

lot of prayer, and talking to people and figuring things out, the fruit of the spirit was what was

given to me. Because the second reason is, like I said, I need to know how I can be the leader that

I'm supposed to be, because that was the other portion of it. I really wasn't doing the corrections

I was supposed to do making sure that people understood, look, you can't do whatever that

thing is. And I really mean you can't do it. But I also don't want to be misaligned with myself as

not being a kind person. So I was like, so how do I become that leader? And so that is also why

this is so important to me. Because I said, this is how I can be that leader. This is how I can

actually let things out that need to come out. This is how I can do it in a way that's beneficial

to other people. That's beneficial to myself, that honors God, that says, hey, look, this is who I am

in every single role. As a author, I am this. As a mother, as a wife, as a co-worker,

as a person who goes to church, as a neighbor, as a volunteer. In all of the roles,

I feel very, very comfortable with what you're saying, displaying something that there is no

law against. I can love in all of those situations. Right. And thank you very much

for sharing about your experience with what you believe was because you pushed your emotions down.

Yeah, I think that had something to do with it. Yeah. And I'd heard the same thing

when it came to grieving, because when I had lost my mother, I was grieving.

And I thought I was doing all the things, but my body was like, no, you're not. And so

my body had a response. And I'm like, where is this coming from? Because most of the doctors,

they're like, we don't know. Yeah. We don't know. And to me, when doctors don't know,

that means it's probably emotional. There's something else that is causing an actual

physiological reaction that comes from somewhere else. It is not a place that's like, okay,

there's something actually wrong with your arm. Your kidney is doing X, Y, Z. No, your emotions

are saying, excuse me, we need to do some things and you're not allowing it to happen.

Right. IE, get the emotions out of your body. It's okay to cry.

It's okay. Even if you're crying in the shower,

you're crying in your car, or you find a safe person. You find a safe person that will just

let you be. Just let you be. Yeah. And that's part of the connection that we're talking about

in this in particular book is the presence of being able to be patient and gentle and kind

enough to people to be present, to give that gift of I'm here. And we do grief share actually. And

that's one of the things they also talk about is like you're saying, be discerning. Not everybody

is able to listen to everything that you're going through, but some people definitely can.

Some people are able to go, Hey, yeah, just, just talk to me. And I'm not going to try to fix

anything that's going on. Cause that's not what my power even is. And that's not even what you

need, but what you do need is a listening ear that says, Hey, just go ahead. Let that out.

Just go ahead and let it out. And part of that gentleness and being good to oneself

is asking permission first. Yeah, that's true. You want to do that. You are absolutely right.

Ask for permission. Are you ready? Can I, can I share this with you? Can I, and it's true because

you know, not every time, sometimes you might not have time, not have the ability to know

whatever somebody else is going through in their own life. And they definitely talk about that.

They definitely talk about the fact that we do have to be respectful of each other when it comes

to, you might not be able to hear this right now. They even talked about maybe writing it on a

letter. The paper is fine. The paper, go ahead, take 10 sheets if you need to, but yeah, pop it

on there so that, so that it's out. But yeah, you're right. That that's a good point to,

to always just at least ask permission too. Yes, because the permission, I was listening to

Jefferson Fisher. He is a former, or no, maybe he's still an attorney. Anyway, he was on a podcast

talking to somebody and he said that when someone just dumps their stress and emotion on you

without permission, that's kind of rude and, you know, essentially unkind. So

that's why I wanted to also highlight the need for the permission. And there are

mental health professionals. Yep. There's that too. Because you don't have to worry about them

sharing your business on the street because they have a structure that protects you. And when you

find a therapist, don't just pick anyone off the street. You have to connect with them too.

That's right. You do. It's okay. Take the time you need to find a therapist that fits you.

I agree. Yeah. And that's a really good point also, because you had said something about

I think it was, well, I guess I could say kind of masking or pretending. And

one of the things that we do have to make sure that we're all aware of is that we don't have

to pretend that we don't need medication, or we don't need therapy, or we don't need

additional help in a situation because that's why the help even exists. And we might need it.

And why not avail ourselves of what is out there to be helpful if that's what we need,

or in the case of we might need it right now, we're grieving or anything else,

having a life change of going to a new job or something. I mean, there's all kinds of reasons

why you might need to talk to someone. I've certainly done that. One of the other times

that I had to do that was, I think, okay, so I wanted to get, oh, so I had in my mind

that I was supposed to have a certain degree, but I never wanted to get said degree.

But I knew that I really wanted it. One, family expectations. Two, I really wanted it. Three,

I was like, hmm, I'm going to really feel accomplished after I do this, but I don't want to,

so I'm not going to. So eventually all kinds of things in life and career and all this kind of

aligned. And I said, you know, I don't think I'm doing, I think I might be holding myself back.

I'm not sure. So I went to a counselor because I was like, I don't know what's going on.

And we just kind of talked it out. And I think, yeah, my mom hadn't passed yet, but my mom was

really ill and we'd been talking a lot as well. And I think I might've been going through that

too, just kind of working those kinds of things out and really having larger expectations than

I even knew. I didn't even know what they were. I didn't have words for what was going on.

And so she kind of helped me walk through some things and talk through some things and all of

that. And eventually the counseling really did help me to move from or to identify why I didn't

want what I knew I wanted. So once we figured it out, I was like, great, yay, all fixed. So yeah,

so I eventually made the journey happen because what was holding me back was something

that was kind of a limiting thought that was not necessary. And I didn't realize that it wasn't

necessary until I went to counseling because it wasn't friends that were able to help out.

I would talk to family and things like that. Those were not the conversations that could help me out

because again, I didn't even have words for it. So the counselor, like what you're saying,

there's all this framework, there's schools that they went to, there's all of these different

questionnaires they can ask you that can help you to identify things that you might not have known

what it was. So yeah, you're right. Ask permission, go to the professionals, avail yourself of all the

various resources that you have. Like one of the resources that I want to say that women have

is every Wednesday, I have elevating conversations for capable women who are carrying too much.

And in that space, it's not counseling, it's, hey, what can we learn from each other?

Because what you and I have been doing here, Zakiyyah, is we've been holding up a mirror

and looking at, oh, this is what I did. And these were some expectations. And if you couldn't tell

that Zakiyyah was full of expectations, every time she said, should, supposed to, those words are

like, hey, that might have been an expectation that Zakiyyah had not examined. I like examining it.

You hadn't examined it.

Don't let it go away, because that's another should. I like that idea.

Examine it. And that's what happens during elevating conversations. We get to

examine what we are doing. Because it's a place of curiosity and openness.

Because with the roles that we have, there's relationships attached to every single role we

have. And there's responsibilities for each person in that relationship. And then we have

these things called expectations, what I call the rigid expectations, the unexamined

expectations. Because it's fine to have them. It's just, are you conscious of them?

And if you're not, sometimes you need a mirror to say, hey, that's an expectation, dear.

And then you get to, a person gets to reflect and say, huh, maybe it is. Because a lot of times

we are holding on tight to limiting beliefs, to expectations that we were not aware that we chose.

And by doing that, guess what? We're comparing. We are competing.

And those two things are not part of the fruit of the spirit.

Loving yourself, being kind to yourself. Because Zakiyyah, I heard you say that when you were saying

maybe I shouldn't, maybe I'm too old. And you said it wasn't loud. A lot of times we're not

just beating ourselves up in a kind of way. Sometimes it's that subtle, soft,

soft, it's always been there kind of conversation that we've had with ourselves.

Then situations happen that disrupt it. So what I would offer is that that two-day coma

could have been the disruption in that familiar pattern that you had. Because when you woke up,

you said, I got to get this book out of me. There's more to my life. So just think about before

that disruptive situation, life-threatening even, scary, all the things. But now on the other side

of it, we can turn and reflect and say, this could have been what was happening. Now this is

how I'm going to move forward with it. I'm going to use this situation to get out of me what's been

in me this whole entire time. Forget the age, forget how long it's taken, forget all those

it's supposed to. Let's just be, right? Just be. Just do the thing, whatever that is.

Now your book is out there. It's there. Families and children. And what I want to say,

we try to put labels on things and say, this is who it's for. But adults,

many of us may not have been taught these things. So when I bought my children books about emotions,

I read them too. Because like, oh, I didn't know that about Greg.

So when you buy and purchase and review Zakiyyah's book,

read it too. Read it with your children. Read it apart from your children and take notes.

Because sometimes we have to bring things down to that basic level to get that understanding again,

to really connect with ourselves and create that bond that we probably did not have or

pieces of it may have been missing or whatever. But it's okay. Start where you are.

I agree. Start where you are. And exactly what you're saying was the permission. Each time I

was giving myself expectations that I didn't realize that they were, I didn't examine what

they were. I was not giving myself permission at all. And then once I did decide, no,

I am allowed to look at something just to kind of see what it might be. Then I was able to

to step over. It was that bridge to the next stage to go, okay, this is what I need to be

able to say that maybe I can learn something new or maybe go get a new resource or something like

that. That's what I can do as opposed to just stay stuck and keep listening to the voice for mine.

I know for sure my main voice was always, it's more comfortable and easy to just not.

That's usually mine. So now I'm very aware of when I'm going,

am I saying that this is really comfortable and this is really easy, which is not terrible,

but let me just take a look. Exactly what you're saying. Let me just examine. Let me just see.

Sometimes it's fine, but sometimes it's not. Right. And that comfort zone,

I found a journal that on the front of it, it said nothing great came or comes from a comfort zone.

And I've had this,

but we're always taught to be comfortable, to be safe and secure. Yes and

our comfort zones get to be expanded.

They're stretchable. They're changeable. They are expandable. Because let me be honest with you.

If this was 10, 20 years earlier, I wouldn't be standing right here

having this conversation with you for the whole world to hear. I got stretched.

I not only had therapists. Yes, there's an S on that. They had different functions.

I also had mentors, coaches, communities that saw me. They didn't judge me. They accepted me.

They were like reading my label because, you know, when you're in a jar,

the contents of the jar cannot read its own label. That's why it's important to be in community.

That makes a lot of sense. And there was encouragement and

stretchiness. Okay? Because they're like, don't stay right there, Elle. You've got greatness on

the inside of you. And I'm like, are you? What are you talking about? Yeah. What you talking about?

From different strokes. Okay. So with all of that, Zakiyyah, help us put a bow on

what we've talked about for what you want the audience to know about what you are sharing.

So we've done the reflection. Now it's time for you to share your map. Like what destination

items would you like to share with us? Yes. So the destination items are one in our little

wonderful book. It kind of talks about how to practice the fruits of the spirit in the world.

So what this is discussed, you were saying the level of the basics, if you will, that the basics

are one, how you take any wonderful book or activity and intentionally, deliberately enjoy

with it yourself, the people around you, the people you care for, all of that.

And so it has a lovely curriculum in there that teaches you exactly what that is. As you were

saying, you wanted to give method. So one of those is look at the pictures, take a book,

look at the pictures, look what's in there, grab the stuff from the Goodwill, from your house,

from the store, wherever, make sure it's a book that everybody enjoys together,

and then go act it out. So for this one, it's set at the park. So go to the park,

take all the wonderful stuff, don't forget your snacks, take your pictures, camera, all of that,

and go do the fruits of the spirit. And so what this one has is love is sharing.

And I also wanted to say that as adults, sharing appreciation is one of those things that I wanted

to say. And like back here, there's a grateful basket. So I have a lot of grateful baskets all

over my house at my job everywhere, where I just write, and I've been doing this for years,

write it down to remember that this wonderful thing happened, or this thing, like you're saying,

I grew from this, this is a growth point, this is a this is a thorn that helped me to

learn something new, any of those things, it doesn't always have to be on the positive side,

it can be all of the wonderful things you're grateful for. So love is a sharing and being

grateful. And then another one was faithfulness. We talked about presence, we talked about

really being there and asking permission is being present with people. Is it okay? Do you have time

to sit with me? Or when do you I really need to talk to you to bringing that presence in.

And for this book, one, the story is a lovely young man who's in a wheelchair,

because that's the other part, this book is it honors people of all abilities. So people who

talk with talking devices, because I work with children who talk with talking devices,

and their families, people in wheelchairs, we're going to eventually translate it to sign language,

so that people who have, who are deaf, can also see the story without having to necessarily read

it. And so making sure that everybody understands that we all get to express the fruit of the

spirit because God poured it into all of us. But I digress. The faithfulness for in the book

is a little girl sitting at the swings, waiting for her friend who's in a wheelchair to come over

and be a part of swinging together. So that presence, that faithfulness, and as an adult,

a great way to show faithfulness is to be there, to be available to ask people questions,

ask permission. And then the last one that I wanted to share, which I deeply enjoy,

is the joy portion, where the kids are on the slide, they are just everybody's having a great

time. Somebody's over there on the swings, somebody's over here on the slide. Other people

are at the top waiting. And they're just like, yes, I am deeply enjoying being here with each other.

And that's one of the things as adults, sometimes intentionally celebrating is taught out of us,

because we have to conform to so many different things we have to conform to.

But this is allowing us to remember that it is a beautiful connection to have when we intentionally

choose to enjoy each other. And so those are kind of the things that I wanted to

share with your audience as methods that say, here is how we take the fruits of the spirit,

and not only have it in theory, but have it in real life, wheels on the ground, practice,

go do the things. And it is the quality, I think you had mentioned that the quality in which you do

it is what it's talking about. It softens hearts, it makes great connections with each other.

It can tear down walls, it can build people up, it can give hope. There's so many wonderful

things that can happen when we choose to put into practice the fruit of the spirit.

Okay. Yes, indeed. And thank you for all of those nuggets, those methods. It has just been,

I could talk to you forever. But we can't. Because these people are probably like,

we've been going on for a while, but I'm grateful that everyone's been here and listening.

But I want to honor your time and want to thank you for your time. And thank you, Zakiyyah,

for sharing your book. And the link is going to be in the show notes as well. You get to learn

more about Zakiyyah and the gift that she will have for you. And the gifts I have for you, again,

they will be in the show notes. This has been Evolving with Elle. I look forward to seeing

you on Wednesdays for Elevating Conversations because midweek, we all need to be elevated.

Many of the women were like, oh, I feel lighter. We share heavy stuff. But when we leave,

we feel lighter. Because guess what? We're not carrying the shoulds and the expectation and

we're being able to feed each other. And that's what this is about. It's that kind of piece.

So thank you, Miss Zakiyyah, for your time.

Thank you so much, Elle. That was amazing. I'm so glad we got a chance to talk.

Until next time.